The truth is that, local government employees are only answerable to their immediate managers. Unlike councillors, they do not have to stand for election every four years.
In the commercial sector, everything relates to improving the business: pleasing the customer, obtaining further business, enhancing profitability etc. None of these apply to local government. They get to set what they charge customers (residents). They have no competition, the customer can't opt to place their current house under the control of another council, short of moving house. Council don't have to make a profit nor, do they need to please the customer.
November already? Doesn't time fly!
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Brians Cravat
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Rwth of Cornovii
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
When I was working in Council offices, I was horrified at the combined lack of efficiency and 'ownership' of tasks. Nobody had any sense of urgency or commitment, though drives to improve such things had been undertaken. As you say Brian, the need to satisfy the customer and provide value for money wasn't there.
However when I worked for a Charity which had to satisfy donors and commissioners of service we did have to be much more efficient. I worked for the Civil service, which had quite a vocational element.
However when I worked for a Charity which had to satisfy donors and commissioners of service we did have to be much more efficient. I worked for the Civil service, which had quite a vocational element.
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goodlookingone
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
You are Both Right.
I may have said this before, But a colleague in Local Gov, Like me had come from the real world. He Lickened Local gov like when He was a Kid (in pre TV days) the family would gather round a Carpet - sacking with bits of fely plugged into it so make - eventualy - a floormat, but No hurry: if you didn't make progress today, then just carry on tomorrow... Local Gov is just like that.
I also recall being grossly overstaffed(Management Services) which gave the illusion that things were being acheived: Not only that, but the more staff our guvnor employed, the Higher his pay rank acheived, so no reason to get things done. ... or as us Management services would say - He was being paid for input, not output. Oddly, it was the New Towns without any History that DID get the populace's Value for Money. Alas these towns are no Longer new...
I may have said this before, But a colleague in Local Gov, Like me had come from the real world. He Lickened Local gov like when He was a Kid (in pre TV days) the family would gather round a Carpet - sacking with bits of fely plugged into it so make - eventualy - a floormat, but No hurry: if you didn't make progress today, then just carry on tomorrow... Local Gov is just like that.
I also recall being grossly overstaffed(Management Services) which gave the illusion that things were being acheived: Not only that, but the more staff our guvnor employed, the Higher his pay rank acheived, so no reason to get things done. ... or as us Management services would say - He was being paid for input, not output. Oddly, it was the New Towns without any History that DID get the populace's Value for Money. Alas these towns are no Longer new...
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Brians Cravat
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
I have a number of further views of the way in which local government works having worked for most of my career within the commercial sector and, then spent the last five years working for a local authority. These are in no particular order of importance.
1. The process of Annuation. This involves the annual budget allocation to a department.
In my days in industry, I would be allocated a budget for the financial year of £x. If I managed to spend more than my budget, I was asked to explain why. A less than credible explanation meant that I had a slapped wrist. An underspend was greeted with congratulations and, the money saved went back in the company accounts, hopefully under the heading GROSS PROFIT.
In local government, Annuation is used. This means that, in the event that the departmental budget is underspent by £y, the budget for the department for the next financial year would be reduced by 2 x £y. The assumption is that the department didn't need it last year so, it won't be needed next year either. A case of common sense and universal rejoicing, you may think. Sadly no! This procedure only serves to encourage departments to ensure that the budget is spent in its entirety. In the months of February and March, money is spent with gay abandon, streets are repaved and freshly tarmaced, council house tenants find their roof newly retiled.
2. Rigid Job Descriptions.
I always considered that job descriptions in industry were a general guide only. Certainly, an person working for me who, when asked why he/she hadn't done something, decided to reply "It isn't in my job description." was likely to receive the 'hair drier' treatment. In the commercial sector, the aim is to maximise the business and if this means doing something that is "not my job", you do it.
In local government, job descriptions are simply there to stifle creativity, discourage initiative and, pander to inflated egos. As a case in point, in my first couple of weeks working in local government things were a little slow, I was alone in the office and, I decided to distribute the various pieces of mail and faxes etc to my colleagues to whom they were addressed. Instead of heart thanks, I was told that I should not have done it because, it wasn't in my job description. It was for the Office Clerk to do. Apparently, I was making her feel that her job was in peril!
There were several other occasions upon which I offered to do something, only to be told that it was not my job!
3. Departmental Staffing Levels
One of the first thing that was drummed into me when I first became a manager in industry was that 'people cost money'. Staffing levels were kept to the bare minimum necessary. If I couldn't find enough work for old Fred to do, he had to go!
In local government, the staffing level for a department/office etc is sacrosanct. Should old Fred leave, heaven and earth is moved to employ someone in his place as soon a humanly possible. The aim is that is should not emerge that the department/office is running perfectly well without old Fred. If this does become public knowledge, the staffing level is reduced by one and, it can take years to get that one restored.
4. Decision Making
As a mantra my view in my days in industry was that the worst sin was that someone didn't make decision when one was required. Leaving it to someone else just wasn't right.
Decision making in local government is excruciatingly slow. A brilliant plan may emerge that could save millions, improve efficiency etc. However, it takes months to put into practice because, it has to be referred to every other department for their approval and, to ensure that no-one else's toes are being trodden on. In many cases, the brilliant idea does not go forward because it is blocked for some obscure reason by another department.
All this is true.
1. The process of Annuation. This involves the annual budget allocation to a department.
In my days in industry, I would be allocated a budget for the financial year of £x. If I managed to spend more than my budget, I was asked to explain why. A less than credible explanation meant that I had a slapped wrist. An underspend was greeted with congratulations and, the money saved went back in the company accounts, hopefully under the heading GROSS PROFIT.
In local government, Annuation is used. This means that, in the event that the departmental budget is underspent by £y, the budget for the department for the next financial year would be reduced by 2 x £y. The assumption is that the department didn't need it last year so, it won't be needed next year either. A case of common sense and universal rejoicing, you may think. Sadly no! This procedure only serves to encourage departments to ensure that the budget is spent in its entirety. In the months of February and March, money is spent with gay abandon, streets are repaved and freshly tarmaced, council house tenants find their roof newly retiled.
2. Rigid Job Descriptions.
I always considered that job descriptions in industry were a general guide only. Certainly, an person working for me who, when asked why he/she hadn't done something, decided to reply "It isn't in my job description." was likely to receive the 'hair drier' treatment. In the commercial sector, the aim is to maximise the business and if this means doing something that is "not my job", you do it.
In local government, job descriptions are simply there to stifle creativity, discourage initiative and, pander to inflated egos. As a case in point, in my first couple of weeks working in local government things were a little slow, I was alone in the office and, I decided to distribute the various pieces of mail and faxes etc to my colleagues to whom they were addressed. Instead of heart thanks, I was told that I should not have done it because, it wasn't in my job description. It was for the Office Clerk to do. Apparently, I was making her feel that her job was in peril!
There were several other occasions upon which I offered to do something, only to be told that it was not my job!
3. Departmental Staffing Levels
One of the first thing that was drummed into me when I first became a manager in industry was that 'people cost money'. Staffing levels were kept to the bare minimum necessary. If I couldn't find enough work for old Fred to do, he had to go!
In local government, the staffing level for a department/office etc is sacrosanct. Should old Fred leave, heaven and earth is moved to employ someone in his place as soon a humanly possible. The aim is that is should not emerge that the department/office is running perfectly well without old Fred. If this does become public knowledge, the staffing level is reduced by one and, it can take years to get that one restored.
4. Decision Making
As a mantra my view in my days in industry was that the worst sin was that someone didn't make decision when one was required. Leaving it to someone else just wasn't right.
Decision making in local government is excruciatingly slow. A brilliant plan may emerge that could save millions, improve efficiency etc. However, it takes months to put into practice because, it has to be referred to every other department for their approval and, to ensure that no-one else's toes are being trodden on. In many cases, the brilliant idea does not go forward because it is blocked for some obscure reason by another department.
All this is true.
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goodlookingone
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Yes........
Now imagine The NHS... A very odd invention... A mix of Proper Management, Teaching, University, Development, and leaning (heavily) on contractors and Partners. ... Oddly, It worked.
An Example OK. I was on Contract into Management Services. They had their own (regional) Management Services, and (some) had developed proper costing such as you have discussed. Now Imagine that one Large Teaching Hospital (1,000 beds, thousands of day visits and hundreds of Docs/Surgeons /Professors doing day clinics,often one day per week) There were also Tech staff and Service staff. All of this lot were served by Porters.. Now concentrate on the Porters - seventy-odd ..or in costing terms X man hours x 52.14 weeks per year.
Many were dedicated to particular Depts, and the costing included anhanced pay for hours on Nights/lates/Sat/Sun/Bank hol.. and all of this needing costing for Annual and Bank Holiday and sickness absence cover - There was a terrific saving possible but just concentrate on the "Holiday and Sickness Absence Costs". Now imagine that an ex Local Gov accountant included in the meeting costing for the next full fiscal year. He didn't approve of costing for Holiday and sickness .. "Cant we do without this and just move other people in to do the absence cover". Local Goverrnment would accept this... Forunately the others explained that this was the cheapest option - we didn' have spare peple hanging on hooks behind the door to take them in when needed.. Incidentally, there were always someone absent, so rostering for half the Hol and Sickness cover, and Half of those hours called in "as and when" by portering management .... it worked.... as it had elsewhere
Another one : OK ... Hip Replacements were becoming more needed and more common - Hundreds of hospitals used to do this involving calling the patient in, measuring, re measuring, finding the right staff for the patients other ailments and so on Costs (Some years ago was £3,000-£5,000). ... Then one Hospital was charged with having a bespoke Surgery to take your pqatient in, do all the checks and tests , and providing whatever services they needed. (Often elderly patiens having multi-problems): Draw the appropriate replacement joint (from a range of all the suppliers variants in the autoclaved stock). Patient out next day. Costing became £980. They concluded by despatching the staff to set op the same arrangements elsewhere at several Sites. Of course Patients complained about not having a local hospital ... But is this method right???? The Hospital who conducting this method closed down (Boss man rertired) and his successor conducted the same methods on Knee replacement...
Now try that in Local Gov.......
Now imagine The NHS... A very odd invention... A mix of Proper Management, Teaching, University, Development, and leaning (heavily) on contractors and Partners. ... Oddly, It worked.
An Example OK. I was on Contract into Management Services. They had their own (regional) Management Services, and (some) had developed proper costing such as you have discussed. Now Imagine that one Large Teaching Hospital (1,000 beds, thousands of day visits and hundreds of Docs/Surgeons /Professors doing day clinics,often one day per week) There were also Tech staff and Service staff. All of this lot were served by Porters.. Now concentrate on the Porters - seventy-odd ..or in costing terms X man hours x 52.14 weeks per year.
Many were dedicated to particular Depts, and the costing included anhanced pay for hours on Nights/lates/Sat/Sun/Bank hol.. and all of this needing costing for Annual and Bank Holiday and sickness absence cover - There was a terrific saving possible but just concentrate on the "Holiday and Sickness Absence Costs". Now imagine that an ex Local Gov accountant included in the meeting costing for the next full fiscal year. He didn't approve of costing for Holiday and sickness .. "Cant we do without this and just move other people in to do the absence cover". Local Goverrnment would accept this... Forunately the others explained that this was the cheapest option - we didn' have spare peple hanging on hooks behind the door to take them in when needed.. Incidentally, there were always someone absent, so rostering for half the Hol and Sickness cover, and Half of those hours called in "as and when" by portering management .... it worked.... as it had elsewhere
Another one : OK ... Hip Replacements were becoming more needed and more common - Hundreds of hospitals used to do this involving calling the patient in, measuring, re measuring, finding the right staff for the patients other ailments and so on Costs (Some years ago was £3,000-£5,000). ... Then one Hospital was charged with having a bespoke Surgery to take your pqatient in, do all the checks and tests , and providing whatever services they needed. (Often elderly patiens having multi-problems): Draw the appropriate replacement joint (from a range of all the suppliers variants in the autoclaved stock). Patient out next day. Costing became £980. They concluded by despatching the staff to set op the same arrangements elsewhere at several Sites. Of course Patients complained about not having a local hospital ... But is this method right???? The Hospital who conducting this method closed down (Boss man rertired) and his successor conducted the same methods on Knee replacement...
Now try that in Local Gov.......
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Brians Cravat
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
GLO, I've always considered the NHS to be a special case within the public sector. Let's ignore the fact that behaviour similar to that within Local Authorities would result in dead patients. The critical point here is that the service deals directly with the end user(s), the patient. Local government doesn't do that, as a general rule.
I have a great deal of time for the NHS. Perhaps I've bee not fortunate that my dealings with the service have always been positive.
I have a great deal of time for the NHS. Perhaps I've bee not fortunate that my dealings with the service have always been positive.
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Rwth of Cornovii
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Somerset Commissioners moved over to outcomes planning. If the patient was better at the end of the proceedings so much the better. Get rid of the bureaucracy and get the patient treated and discharged home or to a step down bed ASAP. It seems to work.
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goodlookingone
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
I had complaints about bureaucracy, but I've nually found it.
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Brians Cravat
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Just drifting away from our fascinating and enlightening discussion about the Public Sector, could I warn you about an incidence of telephone marketing that I'm less than happy with?
A while ago now, I ordered something from a catalogue produced by an organisation called Easy Life. I began receiving the catalogue when I had a 'Motability' car and, assume that it was a disability aid that I purchased. I must admit that, like all of us I receive lots of these catalogues full of things that you never knew you needed but, rarely order anything.
However, back to my story. I still rec I've this catalogue but, tend to drop it in the recycling before even reading it. I was rather surprised one day last week to get a phone-call from them offering me membership of their 'Easy Life Motor Club'. I didn't want what is a 'service agreement'. I explained to the rather pushy young man on the phone that my wife and I had bought a new car at the beginning of September in a deal that included a five year warranty, a service contract and, free membership of the AA. Even he agreed that it was rather pointless. Even so he persisted and, went on to explain that by agreeing to take up the two-week trial, I would get a voucher for £10 of free fuel. I'm really not so desperate for money that I need a tenners worth of petrol but, the guy went on to explain that all I needed to do was cancel the deal when I received the paperwork 'in a few days time'. At no time did he mention any charges. As much as anything else, I just wanted to get rid of the guy.
I was surprised therefore to discover that this company had taken £1.99 from my bank account for the two week trial. If I didn't cancel, I would have to pay a further nearly £60 for a year's member ship of this Motor Club.
So, please beware my friends, these thieves want your money.
A while ago now, I ordered something from a catalogue produced by an organisation called Easy Life. I began receiving the catalogue when I had a 'Motability' car and, assume that it was a disability aid that I purchased. I must admit that, like all of us I receive lots of these catalogues full of things that you never knew you needed but, rarely order anything.
However, back to my story. I still rec I've this catalogue but, tend to drop it in the recycling before even reading it. I was rather surprised one day last week to get a phone-call from them offering me membership of their 'Easy Life Motor Club'. I didn't want what is a 'service agreement'. I explained to the rather pushy young man on the phone that my wife and I had bought a new car at the beginning of September in a deal that included a five year warranty, a service contract and, free membership of the AA. Even he agreed that it was rather pointless. Even so he persisted and, went on to explain that by agreeing to take up the two-week trial, I would get a voucher for £10 of free fuel. I'm really not so desperate for money that I need a tenners worth of petrol but, the guy went on to explain that all I needed to do was cancel the deal when I received the paperwork 'in a few days time'. At no time did he mention any charges. As much as anything else, I just wanted to get rid of the guy.
I was surprised therefore to discover that this company had taken £1.99 from my bank account for the two week trial. If I didn't cancel, I would have to pay a further nearly £60 for a year's member ship of this Motor Club.
So, please beware my friends, these thieves want your money.
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Rwth of Cornovii
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Yes, there are really unscrupulous deals much worse than that, like asking for bank details for postage on a free sample, then sending a double quantity and taking £86 for the first month's instalment of a subscription.
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goodlookingone
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
After I had that Stroke, I let my AA subscription lapse.. I was put in contact wth The Stroke assoc.. Ok so I never actual;ly needed them, but one can buy their services such as Motor Insurance and Car Breakdown Service... Both about 50% of the AA Prices. I have not needed the car, but Wonder if I should have Bought the Insurance, just to maintain Max Discount in anticipation of re-starting my motoring?
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Brians Cravat
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
GLO, I have a feeling that your NCD may be viable for up to three years when you don't have insurance. Your old insurer will have your record.
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goodlookingone
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Hi each:
Sorry, I has to go, so will try catch up tomorrow: Feeling Very Tired, feeling unwell (especially on bus home), and since then has falled down the stairs..
And this area is knee-deep in Chrissmas ... An I hate it.
Sorry, I has to go, so will try catch up tomorrow: Feeling Very Tired, feeling unwell (especially on bus home), and since then has falled down the stairs..
And this area is knee-deep in Chrissmas ... An I hate it.
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Rwth of Cornovii
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Oh no. I hope you didn't hurt yourself too much. Bumps and bruises certainly, but I hope nothing worse. A good night's sleep would do you good. I hope George is well.
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goodlookingone
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Came home (from Remembrance 11'0 clock) and fell asleep.. I did put some dinner in the Oven ------ Forgot it, and have been thinking the Burning smell was Bonfirety.. I'd better rake the ashes....
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Rwth of Cornovii
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Hope some of it was edible.
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goodlookingone
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Late on Parade today ... Had a long "lie-down" ...
Hope all is well...
Noo, Didn't want to eatLast night.
Hope all is well...
Noo, Didn't want to eatLast night.
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Rwth of Cornovii
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
All fine here. Had a long lie in overnight and just got up.
Do you have a timer on your stove? Maybe use a microwave with a timer?
Do you have a timer on your stove? Maybe use a microwave with a timer?
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goodlookingone
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
Hi, Good Morning.
Not got much done over the weekend. A brief lookout fot food (Mine and Cat's).
I shall now lay into beurocracy (I'm sure I spelt that wrongly).
I do have a Microwaver
Not got much done over the weekend. A brief lookout fot food (Mine and Cat's).
I shall now lay into beurocracy (I'm sure I spelt that wrongly).
I do have a Microwaver
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Rwth of Cornovii
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Re: November already? Doesn't time fly!
It might prevent you burning your dinner.
Give the bureaucrats the benefit of your wisdom and experience. I'm sure they deserve it!
Give the bureaucrats the benefit of your wisdom and experience. I'm sure they deserve it!